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Post by Admin on Mar 10, 2022 22:31:54 GMT
I have a 6 year-old seedling from a (i-hybrid x AGHH) cross which should bloom for the first time this spring. It has very thick, heavy and healthy intermediate foliage. Although, this cross, which is a (3x X 4x)cross, is very difficult (~ 1 sdlg. for every 100 crosses), there is a good likelihood that the seedlings from this cross will be tetraploid and, therefore, also will be fertile. I can hardly wait to see the first flowers. Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/7264440/thumbnailer/gwSCESNyJRJGcMTUIASp.png)
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Post by carola on Mar 10, 2022 23:28:04 GMT
Very interesting foliage, Don. The peony world has been waiting for a break-through to tetraploid. How exciting! Thanks for continuing to breed peonies.
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nate
New Member
Woody peonies and herbaceous hybrid interests. Some work also with species crosses x ADV.
Posts: 6
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Post by nate on Mar 11, 2022 15:26:02 GMT
Don, hope this plant blooms with good flowers, which have fertility. If you remember your visit in 2016, I have a plant of 'Bartzella' x AGLH Seedling growing here. It has very heavy foliage which is attractive, but is a shy bloomer with small flowers which resemble P. delavayi in size. Flowers are usually hidden in the foliage. This plant has been kept more as a curiosity and perhaps something we could use for hybridizing. Unfortunately, no positive results using pollen (which is produced in small amounts) or seed to date. ![](https://solarisfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NB-INT1-16.1-scaled.jpg)
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rob
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by rob on Mar 11, 2022 21:47:14 GMT
Don, it is a nice plant . Do you mean that the pollen parent was an herbaceous hybrid? If this is correct you surely know that Hans Maschke registered a couple of plants from the crossing Bartzella x Lemon Chiffon. One is called Golden Monika (yellow colored) and has fertile pollen, the other is named Moonwalk (cream colored) and has limited but useable fertility both ways.
I have tried the same cross in past years using Bartezella as pod parent and different herbaceous hybrid as pollen parents but I never obtained a single seed.
Can you explain me the rationale in your mind of crossing an i-hybrid with a herbaceous hybrid instead of backcrossing a i-hybrid on a lactiflora?
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Post by Admin on Mar 13, 2022 16:53:37 GMT
Roberto, Thanks for your question. Yes, the pollen parent for my RIBC seedling was the Advanced Generation Herbaceous Hybrid (AGHH), Lemon Chiffon, just like the successful crosses made by Hans Maschke, only in my case the seed parent was an unregistered intersectional hybrid (R8P9) of my own breeding, which I refer to by its garden name "Mother Superior". This rare i-hybrid is by far my best and most reliable seed-setter, among all of the hundreds of intersectional hybrids in my garden. It has dark, red single flowers similar to its pollen parent, Boreas.
The rationale for making this particular cross is that it works, whereas backcrossing to Martha W. or other lactiflora cultivars does not. I have made countless intersectional back-crosses over many years of all different types (both IBC and RIBC)and have never have a single viable seed from the (i-hybrid x lactiflora) cross. Although, both of these crosses are, in my mind, RIBC's, they are very different crosses, when you look at them in terms of their ploidy levels. One is a (3x X 4x) cross, while the other is a (3x X 2x) cross. The science of breeding with triploids, such as the intersectional hybrids, is quite complicated so, I won't go into further detail here. However, the bottom line, based on the research that I have seen, appears to indicate that the (3x X 4x) cross is approx. 3-4 times more likely to produce tetraploid progeny than the (3x X 2x) cross. Since the main objective of making these back-crosses is to produce fertile Advanced Generation Intersectional Hybrids (AGIH), this seems like a good direction in which to go. It should also be noted here, that Lemon Chiffon and other similar fertile (presumed) tetraploids are in general more than 50% lactiflora.
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Bob Johnson
New Member
Posts: 7
What is your main area of hybridizing interest?: Herbaceous hybrids
How would you classify yourself as a hybridizer?: Serious
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Post by Bob Johnson on Mar 15, 2022 0:33:37 GMT
I've seen a couple of what looked like viable seeds on a group of intersectionals which had been planted in the midst of one of my seedling beds. Judith Freeman, the lily hybridizer, was visiting and we were opening pods just to see what might be going on inside them. We must have found over 40 black seeds that looked just like herbaceous hybrid seeds, but every one of them was hollow. Much to our surprise though, there were two seeds which were more than twice the size of the smaller ones, and which were white, and still a long way from being ripe. These were solid seeds, but we let Judeth take them. Carol Adelman was with us and she saw them too. I can't remember what the Intersectionals were, but they had clearly been pollenated by some of my tetraploid seedlings.
As an aside, I have some seedlings coming using Hans's Bart x Lemon Chiffon pollen that he kindly sent me several years ago, so for what it's worth, it does seem to be a fertile tet.
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luriel
New Member
Breeder
Posts: 1
What is your main area of hybridizing interest?: Tree peony hybrids
How would you classify yourself as a hybridizer?: Serious
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Post by luriel on Mar 15, 2022 9:28:18 GMT
Hi Bob Exiting news.. look foreward to se if it flowers
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yakabuskie
New Member
Peony Grower
Posts: 1
What is your main area of hybridizing interest?: Herbaceous hybrids
How would you classify yourself as a hybridizer?: Amateur
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Post by yakabuskie on Mar 27, 2022 16:50:45 GMT
This past summer I did about 50 crosses using various intersectional peonies that i had in my field with Lemon Chiffon. I collected about 8 seeds that looked promising, but to date none have germinated for me. I will continue this process this summer in hope to get at least one fertile seed. I also might have collected the seed too early. If anyone in the form, has an suggestions going forward, please do not hesitate to comment. ![]()
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Post by Admin on May 24, 2022 1:38:37 GMT
This thread started back on March 10 with my post showing a picture of my reverse intersectional back-cross (RIBC) hybrid seedling, which I was expecting to bloom for the first time this spring. Well, today was the day. The first of three buds opened this afternoon. The cross which created this advanced generation intersectional hybrid was made in 2016 from the cross (i-hybrid x Lemon Chiffon). So I have been waiting a very long time for this day. This flower is shown below. Although, the foliage is very much intermediate between the two parents, the flower looks much more like the pollen parent(LC), except that the outer edges of the petals are flushed with light pink. Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/7264440/thumbnailer/pfzamB0DpJdDqstJonmf.png)
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Post by erikcarlson on May 25, 2022 20:47:39 GMT
Congratulations Don, I know you have been anxiously waiting for that one to bloom for you. Have you come up with a name for it yet?
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matts
New Member
Posts: 3
What is your main area of hybridizing interest?: More than one of the above
How would you classify yourself as a hybridizer?: Beginner
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Post by matts on May 26, 2022 20:43:45 GMT
Congratulations Don. Thank you for sharing. That's a very exciting conclusion to a lot of hard work. The foliage looks very wide and round like LC, but has the form of intersectional.
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rob
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by rob on Jun 1, 2022 20:49:30 GMT
Hello Don The flower looks nice and as usual a second year flowering is required for further evaluation. Have you found any pollen and if yes have you used it in some way? Have you tried to use it as pod parent? Congratulations for your work in search of fertile i-hybrids
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Post by Admin on Jan 18, 2023 2:12:48 GMT
Rob and others,
Sorry for the extremely long delay in answering your questions regarding my last post. I am pretty much off-line and disconnected during the majority of the hybridizing, growing and planting seasons, which mostly only leaves the wintertime (Jan thru April) for research, writing and correspondence. To address your questions, I used my new second generation intersectional hybrid (which I will refer to here as AGIH for Advanced Generation Intersectional Hybrid) as both a seed and pollen parent in several different types of crosses. First, I used pollen from AGLH (NB-SH-91) on two of the three flowers and pollen from Lemon Chiffon on the remaining flower. The stem pollinated with LC set a couple of soft seeds and no seeds were obtained from the other two (AGIH x AGLH) crosses. Hopefully, next year I will have a lot more flowers to work with.
A more than adequate amount of pollen was collected from these three flowers and it was used on backcrosses to it's grandmother, Martha W (16) and it's pollen parent, LC (6) for a total of 22 crosses. Only one seed was obtained from the MW crosses and so far it has not germinated. Of the six (6) crosses onto LC only two were successful and these produced 3 firm, good-looking seeds, of which two have already germinated and are now in plastic bags in winter storage until spring. So, based on this very limited amount of data, I would say that this new AGIH seedling appears to have some limited fertility, at least, on the pollen side and that its fertility as a pod parent is yet to be fully explored and clearly determined. However, based on its compatibility with LC, which is a known tetraploid, I am optimistic that it too is also a tetraploid. Next year, I hope to have more opportunity to explore its fertility as both a seed and pollen parent in a wider range of crosses. It is interesting to note here, that the two seeds that have germinated so far for me are also from the same cross (LC x AGIH) that produced seeds and seedlings for Bob Johnson (using pollen from Hans Maschke (Bartzella x LC) progeny, which he reported on earlier in this thread (see above).
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Bob Johnson
New Member
Posts: 7
What is your main area of hybridizing interest?: Herbaceous hybrids
How would you classify yourself as a hybridizer?: Serious
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Post by Bob Johnson on Mar 8, 2023 2:45:35 GMT
based on this very limited amount of data, I would say that this new AGIH seedling appears to have some limited fertility… . Don, When fussing with these difficult crosses "some limited fertility" counts as fertility to me ! I'm not doing a thing with I-hybrids here, but I still plug away with Herbaceous Hybrid triploid x tet crosses every year. In my VERY limited experience, it seems to be the triploid seed parent which makes the most difference, as far as whether such crosses make seeds or not, although don't quote me on that, in that here at my home location, resistance to carpal damage from late frosts seems to be the main determinant, as far as getting seeds on anything, really. Of which (straying off-topic for a moment ) there seems to be vast inborn differences in frost resistance among the various hybrids, which manifest themselves consistently year after year. In any case, I look forward to hearing what sort of results you get with this new plant. The pollen I got from Hans seemed to work as well as any other pollen when used on herbaceous tets, so I think it's reasonable to be optimistic with your plant as well. Bob
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